E32 Internal Halyards and Sheaves
Related Topic: Spars
Date: September 2, 1999
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
I'm looking at replacing the masthead sheaves on our Endeavour 32 (Kenyon mast) so that we can change our external wire-to-rope halyards to all-rope internal halyards. Does anyone have any experience, recommendations, or suggestions with doing this? I'd also be interested in hearing about leading lines aft.
Date: September 2, 1999
From: Mike Miller capnmike_s@yahoo.com
Don't know the configuration on a 32...all the lines on my 37 are led aft with deck mounted turning blocks, deck organizers, and holes thru the coaming. A masthead sheave for rope must be capable of carrying a larger diameter than for wire...see if you have the room to put in the larger sheaves. They would be available from RigRite in Rhode Island (www.rigrite.com I believe) who took over Kenyon Spars and stock all the parts. They also have the parts for the old Hyde Streamstay furlers if you need them.
Date: September 2, 1999
From: John Bartoszek JBartosz@symbol.com
I still have my Kenyon sheaves with all rope halyards. The ones I have look like they accomodate both. I have not had any problems with them. Do you really have to change yours for an all rope halyard?
I did replace 2 of the sheaves with the same type about 2 years ago. Found used sheaves at Marine Exchange in Peabody MA.
Date: September 2, 1999
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
John,
I looked at them a number of years back and couldn't get the all-line halyard to feed--too thick. Also, if I want internals, I'll need to do something about the current configuration.
I'll keep marine exchange info handy.
Date: September 2, 1999
From: Tom Powers TomPowers@sunnuclear.com
My E40 has been retro-fitted for internal halyards. The same sheaves were used. I now have four halyards, two aft and two forward. The exit points in the mast are staggered. The work was very easy, but I did it when the mast was down.
The sheave axle on my mast is pushed in against a blind side. The other end has a threaded hole with a small rod extending out to a flat plate welded on the end of the rod. The plate has a hole in it through which a small screw is passed and then screwed into the mast. This holds the axle in place. The problem is that he rod is very brittle, and when you attempt to remove the axle by pulling on the plate, the rod snaps off of the axle and the axle is left in the mast. What I did was to drill a hole in the other side of the mast and push the axle out. Then when replacing the axle, I just drilled and tapped holes in both ends and placed screws in each end of the axle with large washers. This holds the axle in place and is very easy to
remove in the future, however, I do not expect to go through the exercise again.
If you are looking for Kenyon parts, try visit www.rigright.com, they use to carry all of the parts and accessories for Kenyon. If you do not find on their site, give them a call. Good luck
Date: September 2, 1999
From: Tom Gilbert TGil95746@aol.com
Hi again.....I redid my boom last season, so this season it will be the mast. I recently re-did my main halyard with all rope due to the meat hooks on the original. I had no problem running a line over the sheave just by using a good piece of electricians tape to connect the two. Running inside ???? Hmmmn, how ya gonna keep them quiet in a mooring or marina ? Running aft ? Let me see. I use the mast winch for the main halyard, and I reef at the mast as well. All my reef and outhaul lines run forward inside the boom. And my reef points along the sail are tied by standing on the cabintop and hatch. Well, I'd say my E32 is set up to be standing on the cabintop to do all main adjustments. My furling jib runs aft, now thats nice. Good luck. By the way, did you notice if you have a 2:1 purchase on your outhaul ? Don't pull any "unused" bolts out of your boom, especially if the are forward of the 1/2 way point. !!
Date: September 3, 1999
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
Hey Tom,
I just can't seem to get mine to fit thru the masthead--I'll have to look again. As far as noise is concerned--Tension. With less wind to blow them around it should be quiet. Most of the noise in our harbor comes from externals slapping the mast because the wind blows them around.
As far as the reason for leading lines aft, when the wind a waves pickup I'd rather stay in the cockpit. 2 weeks ago we had 12ftrs and it unnerved a number of the vet. sailors in Chicago.
Not sure what I'm going to do yet, maybe nothing but I know I need a main, a vang, and a Dutchman, and would like to raise the boom 6" to fit a dodger. With that it would be nice to lead the lines aft from the mast and improve the ability to single hand the boat.
Date: September 3, 1999
From: Tom Gilbert TGil95746@aol.com
I dunno about mast internals. Some thoughts were thrown out about placing domestic pipe insulation around the lines before setting the mast. That would keep 'em quiet, and nearly friction free. How many, I don't know, but probably held closed with duct tape. I'll be unstepping for a rebuild and repaint this fall, so I'll attempt it as well. :) You'll need to drill big holes in the mast for the leads to come out. There are some chrome inserts that would be used for that purpose. I'd like that too. I have three lines. Hmmmmn. There are wires up in there too. They stay quiet. Hmmmnnn. Well, lets look and see this fall. :)
Date: September 3, 1999
From: Sam Woolsey SamWoolsey@aol.com
Look on the Internet for Sail Rite Inc. They have all manner of Kenyon stuff. The also have parts for the Hyde Staystream furler. I posted a message some time ago with the internet address.
I would also like to lead lines aft but don't see any easy solution for my E-40.
Date: September 7, 1999
From: Carl Hibbard Chgypsy@aol.com
Hi Paul,
This is a long response to a simple inquiry.
As you may remember I have an E-37.
Kenyon mast is no longer in business. But if you will get a Dwyer Mast catalog you will find all of the mast, and boom fittings. Apparently they supplied the parts to Kenyon.
I found that the mast sheaves for the wire/ rope halyards did not need to be replaced when switching to all line. The sheave was built for both and as such is a pretty standard looking sheave with the 1/8" notch at the bottom for the cable which you are no longer going to use. My line was 1/2" and so were the sheaves.
I did have the mast out (which for me is every year) and ran both the jib and main halyards through the mast, cut out access ports, and used rivited plates for the exit holes. I have had no problems with this arrangement. This winter I will probably go for the second jib line and a mast adjustable topping lift in the same manner. I cut the holes with a sabre saw, details on this when/if required.
The rest:
The through mast adjustable topping lift will alleviate one line running along the boom (which I did this year as we use utilize two of three reef slots) and make it far easier to add a "Dutchman" mainsail folding arrangement. which to me is easier than fighting the present no arrangement, and I won't have to futz around with the additional lines of lazy jacks, with the associated clutter and clacking.
Do bear in mind that your present halyard arrangement uses two sheaves for one line (front/rear) and if you go through the mast with the bitter end you will only be using one sheave for each halyard.
Mine; Masthead; At this point the main halyard is the rt rear, while the jib is the left front.
When done the left front will be the auxialliary jib halyard, the left rear will be the topping lift, the right front will be the primary (furling) jib halyard, and the right rear is the main halyard. No banging halyards. The 2nd jib halyard is the only one outboard that you have to tie off somewhere. Although in reality I remove my main halyard and tie it back to a stanchion even when anchored.
I purchased all halyards in 100 foot lengths to facilitate later running to the cockpit.
Tentative planning:
There will be four seperate 1" tubes (pvc) epoxied and faired in through the cockpit combing with the lines going to two stoppers on each side of the companion way. Removal of a mast winch and mounting on the area to starboard of the companionway. (My dog; A cocker spanial will be ticked about this cause thats where he likes to lie down when we are sailing) Between changing the mast ring at the base of the mast to have one with turning block mounts (and probably an attaching point for a mechanical boom vang), Adding turning blocks on the cabin overhead, and the winch to the right of the companionway, the removal of half of the headliner will be necessary for this project, as threw bolting will be done, and additional strengthening using aluminum (?) plates under the winch etc etc could be necessary. I will raise the line stoppers so that the furling jib lead can go over to the starboard mounted winch (ex mast). The other mast winch becomes a spare in the garage.
Date: September 7, 1999
From: Kevin Coon kkcoon@worldnet.att.net
Greetings,
I replaced my rope to wire halyards (E32) with all-rope internals and did not have to replace the sheaves as they were not deeply grooved. They have not caused undue wear over the last five thousand miles or so. Good luck.
Date: September 8, 1999
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
Kev,
The more I think about the mast issues confronting me, the longer the list gets. Did you go with the same size halyards? What kind of line did you use?
I'd like to take down the mast and repaint it and the boom, raise the boom 6 inches so that I can add a dodger. Then add a vang, a Dutchman, new mainsail, and lead all lines aft. I know you've made many similar changes and would love to hear your thoughts, pros and cons, about your experiences with these projects.
For instance, the devil is in the details. How did you silence your internals, where did you locate the stoppers and extra winches, etc.
Date: April 1, 2000
From: Tom Gilbert TGil95746@aol.com
THE MAST IS ABOUT FINISHED..............one more coat of Interlux 2 part epoxy.... The 4 openings are cut in for the 3 internal halyards, and the wind system is ready to install. No GPS antenna needed topside. The holes are drilled for the spreader lights, and will prewire soon. Had to use an impact wrench and heat to get all the screws out ! The conduit mod was in by previous owner, and I'm ready o finish up. My good friend's E32 has the boom mod for the bimini. Raised it 4 or so inches. Need more info, let me know.....
Now I need an assist..........There was an internal halyard fix for banging halyards using plastic wire ties and a length of cordage inside the mast. Does this ring any bells with you ?? Off to the paint store
Date: April 2, 2000
From: Robert Warren rwarren@inna.net
I have just had my 79 mast redone. Expensive but it sure looks nice. I have external rope halyards but did not like the wiring inside the mast banging around. What the yard did was insert pink, half inch thick, foam pieces. It kind of reminds me of the material thin foam backpackers sleeping bag pads are made of. This stuff was rolled so it would fit in the mast but act like an inner self and hold cables, etc. against the inner wall of the mast. I don't know whether a wire halyard would cut through this stuff or not. Certainly a lot cheaper and easier that riveting conduit inside the mast. This foam stuff can be easily pulled out and reinstalled.
Date: April 2, 2000
From: Paul Komarow pikomarow@webtv.net
I like free methods. Here is one that works. Find someone that is getting a new appliance. Take the stira slit it, slide a piece up every five feet or so. hold the pieces on the line with wire ties and you will be happy with the results. Stay well
Date: April 2, 2000
From: Carl Hibbard Chgypsy@aol.com
Hello Tom,
The plastic ties are for fixed items like antenna cables wiring etc, not halyards.
Date: April 2, 2000
From: Kevin Coon kkcoon@worldnet.att.net
I have internal halyards with no banging problem- I just attach the shackle end to the toe rail and make them snug. It was my antenna coax and light wiring that was slapping. I rivited a PVC conduit inside of the mast and that took care of it. Good luck!
Date: April 2, 2000
From: Sam Woolsey SamWoolsey@aol.com
Tom,
I put the main halyard inside on my E-40 (the headsail was already inside) and did nothing about putting them through any sort of restraints and haven't heard a peep out of them. I do make a practive of keeping them tight.
Date: April 4, 2000
From: Carl Hibbard Chgypsy@aol.com
Hello again Tom,
Your original request just wanted the stuff on the plastic ties, and I didn't know you had your mast out and worked the whole thing over.
If you had the metal electrical track cover off, which is really your mainsail slug track, this is what is rattling not the halyards. Really, it sounds just the same. The way I finally cured mine was to lay a bead of silicone in each side of the track in the >16th inch gap on each side about 1 ft. apart all the way down the metal track. You will go nuts with this one, swear its the pulleys rattling or any of the wiring that you actually left inside the mast and not in its track or or or....
BTW if you did leave any wiring inside the mast (say antenna cables or ?) it could be rattling and you take three of the plastic jip ties at a given point of the bundle on a 120 degree spread, and do this about every 4-6 ft. this holds the cable or bundle roughly in the center so that they don't bang the sides.
Date: October 31, 2001
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
Update on the E32 masthead sheaves:
I pulled the 'sheave box' out of the masthead. I called RigRite to inquire about the sheaves and if I needed a different type for all rope halyards. I was told that the original sheaves on the E32 are designed to work with either that wire/rope or all rope halyards. They're shaped like the letter "V" and don't have a deep narrow groove in them where the wire would go. That's good because a new sheave runs about $80 each. Times 4.
Secondly, I found that the reason my wire/rope halyard wouldn't feed through was due to the fact that whoever originally installed the masthead light did so with 1-1/2" long screws, one of which came down right in front of the halyard sheave. The space it left was just enough for the wire to pass by but not the rope.
Date: April 21, 2003
From: David Glasser agavedave@msn.com
I have read the many postings for installing internal halyards on an E-32. I still have these questions:
- If the halyards are run free in the mast, that is without a conduit, are there problems with chafe or the halyards twisting or fouling?
- Where is the best location for the mast exits above the winches?
- If a conduit is advised, do you use one for each rope and how do you install the pvc pipe?
Date: April 21, 2003
From: Tom Gilbert Tgilbert123@aol.com
Dear David,
I ran the halyards internally on my E32 and this is what I did.
The conduit is for all the wiring. If it's not installed, that's another topic. I ran all three halyards internally, and took a good guesstimate of where the leads would exit with minimal drag going onto the winches or blocks. (I never did measure anything after the fact, but all has worked out fine.) I then cut the mast, and installed the exit fittings. Kept snug, they never rattled or vibrated. There never was any "in the mast" conflict of the halyards. Check your sheave size masstop, as you may need to downsize a halyard to run cleanly over the top and into the mast. The new owner loves the set up.
Date: April 21, 2003
From: Dick Caswell dcaswell22@hotmail.com
David ,
I have not worked on my internal halyards, but I had radar installed without any conduit and the cable sometimes bangs into the mast while at anchor.
Date: April 22, 2003
From: Bradd Wilson marina@portcolborne.com
Paul
Our main & Jib halyard are internal (without a conduit) and pose no problem with chafe or fouling but do "bang" back and forth when the boat rolls slightly as at anchor or at the dock which can be irritating. Running separate conduits securely fastened inside the mast is a major job and not worth it for us. Our lines exit about 3 and 5 feet above the winches.
Date: April 22, 2003
From: Fran and Bob Janke bobjanke@optonline.net
Dear Dave,
I installed internal halyards on my E-32, and they have worked very well with no problems (so far for several years, anyway). I used no conduit, and definitely would not recommend it for the halyards.
However, my electrical cable (masthead, steaming, foredeck light, and ground), together with my VHF antenna cable, had been secured to a series of tiny, tiny "sail slides" which run up one of the two small channels on the inside of the mast aft. If they had not been secured this way, I would have tried to put them in a small diameter conduit, to keep them away from the halyards if possible, and to provide a smooth surface for the halyards to rub against if not.
I didn't use any "exit boxes", just drilled two holes about 5" apart, and then joined them as a slot. I did spend some time "de-burring" and smoothing the edges and ends of these slots. I put them as high as I could, and still have them be inside the sail cover. I lined them up, the best I could, to make a fair lead to the forward edge of the starboard winch barrel and the to the aft edge of the port winch barrel.
I wish you the best of luck. The effort was very worthwhile for me.
Date: April 24, 2003
From: Thomas Silva shamrock@fwi.com
Dear David,
I have a 1985 38' Endeavour C/C and two years ago I had my main and,jib halyards, as well as the topping lift, run through my mast. Exiting out with each one using 1/2" flat halyard exit plate above and near the mast mounted winches. The sheaves at the top of the mast were used with no modification. A rather simple procedure.
Date: April 24, 2003
From: Paul C. Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
Internal halyards can slap inside the mast if they are not set up tight, but more often the slap you hear when the boat rolls at anchor is made by unsupported electrical wiring inside the mast. The best solution for this is to install a thin-wall PVC conduit inside the spar to contain the wiring. This is easy enough to accomplish when the spar is out of the boat. Detailed instructions can be found in the book, This Old Boat.
(As far as I know most Endeavours, if not all, have this conduit installed)
An alternative that can be affected with the mast stepped is to drill small holes in the side of the mast one quarter, one half and three quarters of the way up the mast. Drill the top and bottom holes on one side of the mast and the middle hole on the opposite side. Use a hook of stiff wire to fish the electrical wires (but not any internal halyards) toward the holes so that you can get a piece of softer wire around them. The trick here is to make the soft wire loop long enough to let the electrical wire hang straight until you get all three loops around it. Now go back to each hole, starting at the top, and use the loops to pull the wire against the side of the mast. Twist the ends together around a bead or a small washer to keep them on the outside of the mast. Tightening the three loops forces the electrical wire into a zigzag path down the inside of the mast and thus eliminates the annoying noise they can make when they're loose.
Extracted from the article All Quite on Board by Don Casey at SailNet
(For noisy external halyards, lead the halyard away from the mast and attach the shackle to the lifeline attachment at the bow pulpit. If you prefer the halyards tied off at the mast, you can clip bunge cords to the halyards and standing rigging to pull the halyards away from the mast.)
