Rebedding Ports
Date: November 28, 2000
From: Don Reeder dreeder@nettally.comI have a 1977 Endeavour which I've had for 6.5 years. Two years ago I replaced all ten ports and both hatches. I bedded everything down with 5200 as I was under the impression that it was the number one sealant in a marine environment. Now both hatches leak and three ports. One hatch and one port of which leak to extreme in a strong downpour. I've since been advised by some friends that 5200 was probably not the best choice as it gets brittle and cracks with temp changes (I live in north Florida). I'm not convinced that that is the problem. Does anyone know if this is the most likely problem, and if so that best way to approach it, short of removing the ports, which I don't even know if it is possible since they are securely "glued in" with the 5200? What is the best bedding compound for ports and hatches? I'm going to try the silicone grease on the seals. Otherwise, I'm out of answers now.
Date: November 29, 2000
From: Don Pothier donpothier@yahoo.comI've done significant rebedding over the years on several different boats. I would recommend that you do NOT do all your rebedding with 5200. It is a very good product in the right place. It definitly will stick to anything and last a long time. But unless one of the surfaces is metal and later on you want to remove it, it will take more effort to remove it than you will care to expend.
There are several good books on the subject, two which I can recommend, are listed in West Marine Catalogue: This Old Boat and Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair by Don Casey. You'll find others in Barnes and Noble and at International Marine Publications.
Good luck and don't get discouraged. It takes lots of time and perserverence to properly maintain a boat.
Date: December 2, 2000
From: Kevin Coon kkcoon@worldnet.att.netI have run into the same problem myself. I found that Boat Life's silicone worked much better than 5200. The 5200 seemed to shrink. It has been 5 or 6 years since I have sealed the ports and hatches with Boat Life's silicone and have had no leaks since. The 5200 only lasted a few months. I like the boat life product because it is easier to smooth when it is wet, it seems to have a latex like consistency.
Date: December 2, 2000
From: Wolfgang Harms Wolfgang@pioneer-research.com5200 Silicone is not the problem. I have used it, had the boat in the Bahamas for years and up north. But one port leaked after installing it 6 years ago, so I recaulked all ports. This should be done every 4 years. You don't have to take the port out, just the outer tightening frame.
There are different types of ports. I analysed the leak problem on my Beckson ports: The port is pressed against the teak paneling inside. So the teak and the fiberglass plus the caulking make the seal. If the caulking on the edges edges start cracking and moisture seeps through it is absorbed by the teakpaneling inside, which then rotts. Water can run inside the panel. With this system you have to make sure that the outside caulking is really well applied.
There are different types of ports where the port is squeezed against the outside fiber glass, not the inside. Plus a gasket and caulking. I have seen Vetus selling it, probably made in Holland. Expensive, but better.
Hatches: I had several leaks.
Reason 1:
The gaskets were worn out. You don't see it but they need to be replaced every 5 years. Some hatches are adjustable, but I do not know how good it is if you tighten at the side of the closing latch and not at the hinges. Ideally, the hatch should be adjustable evenly on all sides.Reason 2:
The residues of the old gasket were not well removed. Needs to be scraped out and dissolved with alcohol really well.Reason 3:
Last time I did not cut off the end really straigth, so there was a tiny opening were the ends meet. I inserted a piece that fits better with clean vertically cut ends.Reason 4:
The hatches are mounted on a wooden frame. I had a crack in the caulkingbetween the aluminum frame and the wooden frame. I pressed caulking in fromthe outside, this worked. But I could see that at some point the total hatchhas to be taken out. So far they held up for 18 years. This was the firstleak of such a kind.Reason 5:
Since the last damgage I got my Sunbrella hatch covers out and attach them with grommets. That should help too to keep the caulking (and the teak)in good shape, and even help to keep the rain off.
Date: December 2, 2000
From: Robert McWhorter RTMLAW@aol.comI've had good luck with a product called "Flowable Silicone" that may be purchased at any of the chain automotive stores. It is commonly used for windshield leaks. A tube costs around $2. It's about the consistency of Karo Syrup and sags into the smallest hole. It must be used sparingly because it does flow so well and requires patience for use on vertical surfaces.
Date: December 2, 2000
From: Mike Miller capnmike@coqui.netHi Don!
Hate to tell ya this, but the manufacturers of most ports specifically state that only Silicone Sealant is to be used...NEVER 5200! Sure it's the best sealant for deck hardware, but not for plastic! It contains a solvent, according to Beckson, that migrates through plastics and makes them brittle and prone to cracking and deterioration! In fact, their ports come with a label specifically stating that only Silicone should be used, or their warranty is void. 5200 also makes it almost impossible to remove the ports or hatches without breaking them.Soooo-the best bedding compound remains Silicone. If you can remove the trimrings on the ports, I'd recommend doing that, since that is where the wateris coming in, and removing as much 5200 as possible, and re-caulking withsilicone...the GE stuff is as good as any so-called "marine" silicone and alot less expensive. Even if you have to break the trim rings, they arerelatively easy to buy replacements for. Leave the ports in. The silicone grease around the gaskets is OK....I have had the same problem and found that inserting a piece of thin cord inside the rubber gasket makes it "fatter" and stops the leaking. You might want to try this. Hope this info helps...
Date: December 2, 2000
From: Tom Gilbert TGil95746@aol.comOMG..... I've been there ! I rebedded my ports two years ago, and one leaked till last month. It was a Beckson, and had a minute crack in the lower corner outside of the rubber gasket. I sealedthe outside of the crack with silicone caulking when it was dry and clean. My biggest headache in all this was tracking down the minutest details of the leaks, and sealing each one individually. Water finds it's way into the minutest of joint cracks. I used a garden hose at low volume and had a mate inside as I poured locations from the bottom up. It was time consuming, but the results are permanent. I don't use 5200 anymore, for the mentioned reasons. Silicone caulk or silicone based caulks are good for me. The screws are a nuisance to seal, so good luck. BTW, these caulks shrink in a year's time, so apply it with that in mind!
Date: December 2, 2000
From: Michael Gendel mgendel@worldnet.att.netDon
I replaced all new on my 42. I used 4200 since I did not want to glue them in with 5200. The polysulfides turn yellow. Pompanette recomends some German product, which I could not find.First, you need to determine WHERE the water is coming in. Try a hose. Start LOW. Need two people. You run the hose, person in watches for leak. I would aim a good stream slowly around the flange edge starting low and working around both vert edges then x top. then try a spray on the lens. Try to simulate a down pour. You can make any seal leak with a powerful enough stream. So if you put a hard pencil stream close up to the lens, well you won't be realistic. Another thing to try is at night, very dark. cover the lens. Get a very bright light, preferably narrow beam. Light is like water. place the light on the edge, run it around, see if the inside observer sees any light leaking in. Then you can try the technique around the lens.
Also, maybe ther is something like say chalk that you can put on th e gasket or on the frame, not both. Close it, open it see where the chalk did not deposit. On my 42 the holes where really butchered in making caulking the frame difficult. I have not exposed the top side to weather yet, I am doing a
total renovation, so I can not say what success I have had. The gaskets are known to leak. However, I understand that you do not want to tighten them down to hard as this can cause leagage too. I would be surprised if the 5200 is leaking especially since it is not that old, unless you like me had really oversized openings making a good seal difficult. Good luck, keep me posted.
Date: December 2, 2000
From: Peter Erdo gemcut@compuserve.comI too replaced all my ports and re-bedded the hatches about 4 years ago. First used silicon as recommended by the port co. Luckily I did one to test and it leaked. Cleaned off the silicon and installed it again using 5200 and no problems. Proceeded with the rest of them using a LIBERAL amount to make sure too seal every little nook and cranny. So far so good. Environment is S. Florida so maybe we don't get the temp extremes you do.
Date: December 2, 2000
From: Peter Doddato lapdog@olsusa.comDon,
I replaced all of my ports with New Found Metals bronze ports. They advised using black polysufide clauk. I used Life Clauk. It remains soft and pliable after it cures.....sort of like a rubber gasket. When I bedded the ports, I didn't tighten them down all the way or I would have squeezed out all of the clauk. After it was cured, I went back and snugged up the screws. The only leaks I have occassionally are around the rubber seal. I think that only occurs when they get gritty with salt and dirt. Cleaning them with the silicone seems to stop it. Hope this helps.
Date: December 2, 2000
From: Carl Hibbard Chgypsy@aol.comHello Don,
A few questions please. Have you determined whether the leaking ports are doing so throught the weatherstrips, or behind the plastic framework ? If through the plastic does it appear to be at a screw hole? Did you replace the complete port? Are you using IE Beckson as the originals were? and in whatever case did you drill new holes for the replacement ports?Whose hatchs did you install ? Again did you drill new holes?
There are reasons for the above questions.
The 3M5200 may not have been the correct sealant for several reasons. Primarily is the point that whatever you used it with can't be removed. But as side information you may be able to cut off the piece with an "hi E guitar string" tied around to pieces of wooden dowel, work back and forth like a hand held wire saw. OR...there is a chemical that will soften 5200 to allow removal of a part.
Anti-bond 2015
Toll free? 877.800.7971
www.anti-ant.com/antibond2015.html.First time I saw it used was on Ship Shape tv.
Date: December 3, 2000
From: Ron Brown ronb@ncnets.netDon,
I have a E-32, 1979 model. Like you I have re-bedded my ports with 5200 and they still leaked, but not bad. Turn out most of my problem was from the seals. They get dirty and the dirt keeps the seals from sealing. What I have found works best is to coat them with Vaseline. I do this about every other month or so and it works. Hope this helps.
Date: December 3, 2000
From: Bill Aldridge mobetah@bellsouth.netDon,
Greeting from Pensacola......I have an Endeavour40....when searching for our dream boat back in the early 90s we looked at many (six or seven) Endeavour40s. Almost all had waterdamage around the ports due to leaking. In one I actually stuck my finger throught the wood when I examined it....The guy I bought MOBETAH from told me that he had keep leaks to a minimum by constantly rebeding the ports. After we became the owners..we found out what he menat by constantly rebeding ports...I spent almost every weekend rebeding at leat one of the eighteen (yes there are two extra) ports. About eight years ago, I replaced all the ports with stainless steel ones (I purchased them from a wholesaler in St. Petersburg who I now understand has gone out of business) They appear to be same ports used by Saber Yachts. The original plastic ports had an inner section and an outer section which had to be installed on the inside and the outside at the same time - lined up and bolted together. With the original ports, when I tried to completely bed the port I could not do it because of the way that both sides had to be installed at the same time. With the stainless steel ports....The major part of the port is installed from the inside...This portion with screwed to the inside with bedding under the lip (I used 5200)....then from the outside the all cracks and voids were filled with bedding (again 5200)...then with an excess of 5200....the flat outside trim piece is screwed to the outside. This worked great for perhaps 7 years (not a drop of water from leaking ports). After 7 years during very heavy rains I began to see some minor leaking.......My fix was to take the trim ring off the outside (at this time I found out that after 7 years the 5200 had begin to harden and shrink) and put more 5200 under the trim ring and reinstall it.....this appears to fix the problem..If it stops any leaking for another seven years...I'm happy!
Hope my experience helps....keep me informed
Date: December 3, 2000
From: A.C. Whitlow spiderjohn@alltel.netWe had the same problem with the ports on Spider John after three ports were professionally replaced. What I found was a lack of a fair run for the water to drain. In other words the sealant was fine, it just had some voids and path ways into the boat. I only removed the outer ring and built up the sealant, smoothed it out, replaced the outer ring, and that problem was solved. I've got a bunch of problems, but the ports don't leak :-) I doubt the problem is the 5200 but the 3M 4200 is probably a better product for the ports as it doesn't bond as strongly which means it's easier to replace the ports at a later date. Hope this helps.
Date: December 4, 2000
From: Jerry Bernath bernathj@pocketmail.comHi, theis is Jerry Bernath on E42, BiBi, currently in Indian Harbour Beach Florida. I must not be far from you. I have repalced and rebedded my large fixed ports successfully. I use Life Calk. The hatch problem may be the round rubber seal. I am just doing mine. My opening port lights were leaking and I solved the problem by using a special high temp sealer use for O-Rings.
Date: December 4, 2000
From: Jim McMordie jim.mcmordie@marconi.comI installed all new ports in my E-32 also. When I recieved the ports, the paperwork with the ports said to use 5200 only ... all warrenties were voided if 5200 was not used. I used way more than I should have, but I've never had a leak. I would think that you could remove the (outer) bezels, cut as much 5200 away as possible and re-calk the ports.
Date: December 4, 2000
From: Ed Blithe BLITHE@Sensormatic.comDon and Nancy,
We also replaced all 10 ports and both hatches on "Invicta" our 78, 32' Our hatches leaked between the teak trim and the deck and the actual hatch itself, ya might want to check that. I wanted to replace the original hatches anyway so I did with Lewmar 55's, they dropped right in. The ports needed to be returned twice to the manufacture (Bomar) since they didn't close properly but now are OK (all done two years ago). I bedded all in with Boatcaulk@ which appears to work well. I too used 5200 on the two ports that I first installed, (that happened to be the defective ones) and was able to remove them with some of the fiberglass surface but not to damaging to the boat. Can you tell were the leaks are? On the port themselves or between the port and the deck? Did you coat the screws with caulk or 5200 when you screwed them in?
Date: December 5, 2000
From: Jonathan Richards Endeav35@aol.comI'm afraid you used the wrong product to bed the ports. 3M 5200 is a powerful adhesive and not really intended as a sealant. They use 5200 on the hull deck joint to keep it together. If you can get your ports off, and I anticipate that if you used the kind of amount necessary to create seal it will be very difficult, you should rebed with a silicon sealant like BoatLife products.
When rebedding the ports you can apply enough of the sealant to insure that you have created an adequate gasket around the port. With the sealant you don't need to be stingy but remember that a fair amount will ooze out as you bolt or screw in the ports and hatches which excess has to be cleaned up, to use enough but not too much.
Now as you secure the port or hatch you should not tighten down the screws all the way. Rather you should tighten down until you see the product start to ooze out from around the port or hatch. There should still be one or two turns left on the screw, but don't test it as you will push out all of the sealant. With the port or hatch 90% secure stop and let the sealant setup for about 24 hours. After this setup period you can then apply the torque and tighten all of the screws. What you've accomplished by this bed and wait process is that you allowed sealant remaining between the port or hatch and deck to create a silicon rubber gasket around the port or hatch which you then compress to form a perfect seal.
As to the hatches, I rebed all of the deck hatches in 1990 but one hatch started to weep again this year. I pulled the port, an easy task since I used the silicon sealant ten years ago. I noted that the wood frame of the hatch had a half inch separation between the inner wood frame lining and the outer wood frame that is visible on deck. At the recommendation of my boat yard I packed that space with the gray putty you buy in the hardware store for sealing around air conditioners and other window openings. I then carefully rebed the hatch following the above procedure. The following week we had a major rain storm for two days (one of many this spring) and the hatch was dry as a bone.
My experience for this is that when I bought my E-35 the ports leaked so bad the interior teak liner of the cabin trunk and plywood underliner of the deck was rotted through in several locations and I spent $3,500 to have a professional ships carpenter repair and replace the damage. To save some money I did the rebed job myself, with the advice and counsel of the yard carpenter. The ports that I rebed ten years ago are still tight and dry, although I assume that at some point I'll need to rebed these. Ten years of a leak free interior is pretty good.
Let me know if I can be of any other assistance.
Date: October 30, 2001
From: Liz & Pete Scudder lizandpete@myexcel.comHi Paul! You sound experienced with replacing Beckson ports.Any hints, shortcuts or tips to ease the job would be most appreciated. I have a leaker inthe head and have to replace a large one in the cabin. Both on port side.
Date: October 31, 2001
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.comPorts. Ah yes I remember it well.
I assume that you'll be reusing the existing port if it's in good condition. However, the process is the same whether you reuse or replace.
Essentially if you want to do it right so that you don't have to do it again in a year or so, you have to pull the port out completely and properly rebed it/them. Temporary fixes by applying caulk around the outside of the trim plate lasts about 6mos to a year depending upon exposure. Doing all of mine (10) took 50-60 hours but that included replacing the teak on the inside of the coach roof. Rebedding the ports doesn't require a lot of skill or intellect--just time, patience, and attention to detail. I pulled all of ours and rebed in 1996 and they're still fine. My understanding is that caulking should last at least 10 years. I think the original lasted 12 to 15 years.
Sage advice you say? Well be gentle when removing the port, trying not to distort or break the pieces. I used a stiff, flat putty knife I believe and a "little" heat helps too, but don't forget that they're plastic. I think I also ordered new trim rings from Beckson for the outside. Hopefully they should come of reasonably easy but there is a risk of breaking them.
After you get them out you need to thoroughly clean all the surfaces that will come into contact with the new 'caulk'. Use Acetone. Both on the ports, trim rings and boat surfaces. This is very important if you want good adhesion. It can't be too clean. Get all the old caulk off, wash with mild soap, and then use Acetone,
If you need to replace teak, now is the time to do it. Use the old panel as a template for the new. In either case, check the edges of the teak panel. When I replaced ours I sealed both sides of the panel as well as the edges so that if there was a future leak, it wouldn't damage the wood or the finish. You may want to put a coat or two of urethane on.
Next put all the pieces back in place and mask around the trim rings both inside and out. Do this to minimize the clean up.
You want to bed the ports on a day that is not to hot or cold, and not too humid, with little to no wind. I don't know where you're going to do it but our boat yard had gravel and limestone that continued to leave a fine dust on everything. Clean the surfaces again immediately before you apply the bedding compound.
Next, the caulking. What ever you use DO NOT use 5200 or a polysulfide caulk. 5200 will make it impossible to ever get them off or rebed them again. 5200 is a very strong adhesive designed to be used in structural applications such as the hull/deck joint. Polysulfides will ruin the fiberglass.
I used Sikaflex (on our boat yards recommendation) but you can use another brand. The key is to get real FRESH sealant. Be careful not to buy some that's been sitting on a shelf for 6mos or a year. Buy it from someone that rotates stock frequently. I feel that next to making sure that everything is very clean, this is the next most important bit of advice. Buy it from someone who sells a lot of it.
The next part is the messy part. Lay out and tape on 'drop cloths' to catch any drips or whatever. You don't want to have to be cleaning up an oops while while you're trying to do the port. It's also hard to clean out of the nonskid surface. I taped plastic Visqueen on inside and out.
Get lots of rags and have the Acetone close by for cleanups as you go. I found that paper towels are ok for big messes, but that rags worked better for fine clean ups. You will need a lot of rags.
You apply the caulking to the port first, in the corner, and work your way out. You want enough caulk so that when you put the port back, you get an even flow (no gaps) of caulk squeezing out from behind, all around the edge, so that you have about 1/8" to 1/16" thick of caulk between it and the coach roof. I'd err on the side of being liberal because you don't want to pull it off and start over. While it's being held in place, bed the screws and loosely put them in. You do not want to tighten them but only hold the port in place to maintain the 1/8" to 1/16" thickness of caulk. Make sure that the port remains flat. You may find that the coach roof has a slight curvature to it and you don't want the port to follow that.
On the outside, fill in any gaps you might find between the port and the coach roof with caulk but don't over fill so that when you apply the trim ring that you get excessive amounts weeping out from between the ring and port.
Now add caulk to the trim ring and put into place the same way as the inside, loosely screwed in place with 1/8" to 1/16" of caulk between.
Clean, Clean, Clean as you go. Try to clean up the plastic surfaces and minimize the caulk weeping out from around the port and trim ring. You may want to wait a bit until it starts to set up which will help to prevent more caulk to weep out as you clean. After this you let it set up and cure--come back the next day.
After the caulk has dried, you go back and evenly tighten up the screws so that the port remains flat. This means that you may have areas of caulk that are thicker than others but you don't want to crank it down so hard that the port is distorted. If you do, you'll get leaks from between the lens and the gasket.
Now that everything is tightened, go back with a razor blade and cut away any caulk still weeping out. This should be very minimal if you cleaned up correctly while it was still wet. Take off the masking tape and do a final clean up. I found that one of those sponges with a plastic scrubbing pad on one side helped to remove residual caulk.
That's it. The only other advice is take it slow and think about each step before you do it. The caulk doesn't dry that fast and should allow you plenty of time to go slow. I seem to remember that I had more than 30 minutes before it started to skin over.
Good luck and don't worry too much. Put on some tunes and enjoy the day. If you have any specific questions, drop me a line.
Date: November 1, 2001
From: Liz & Pete Scudder lizandpete@myexcel.comHi Paul and thanks for such a comphrensive response! One more question - it sounds like you removed the port from the inside and then attacked the outer trim ring. Is it possible to replace the port without removing the outer trim ring?
We appreciate your assistance and the web site is great!!
Date: November 1, 2001
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.comPete,
I suppose it's possible. As I remember the trim ring only screws into the hull and doesn't go through it and into the port. But the problem confronting you is that water is getting into the boat from the outside. If anything, I'd rebed the trim ring and leave the port in place. The reason water is getting in is because the sealant is pulling away from the hull letting water migrate into the boat. If you're trying to cut corners, my money would be on rebedding the trim ring and screws to make sure that you have a good seal on the outside and leave the port alone.If you need to replace teak on the inside then that's another story.
Date: May 9, 2002
From: James Parks RIPTYD97@aol.comI have looked over the several comments/suggestions about rebedding ports and do not see any addressing a major cause for leaking. We have had our E-40 (hull #198) for 13 years. Of course the ports leaked and caused teak veneer damage. Fortunately the previous owner had not used 5200 and they were not too difficult to get out. The first thing I noted was that the port opening went through the fiberglass exterior and the teak veneer interior. There was a big gap between the two, from 1/2 inch to 1/8 inch. The raw edge of the veneer was not sealed at all. This poses two major problems.(1) Any water getting through the outer seal runs into the void between the cabin fiberglass and the veneer. ( 2)The weak flexable veneer allows seal between the two surfaces to flex and prevent a good tight seal. ( It could be that mine is the only
Endeavour to have this construction flaw) What i did was pack the void with Marine Tex, about an inch deep from the rough opening, all around, being careful to cover the raw veneer edge. After the Marine Tex set, I filed and sanded it to make a good solid water-proof opening. You have to redrill the screw-holes. When i installed a new port I could tell I was seating the port onto a good solid stout base. No more problems with wet veneer.
Marine Tex is messy to work with. i found a way to handle it better. After mixing, I used a 60cc medical irrigation syringe to work like a chalk gun. Put the Marine Tex into the barrel with a putty knife. Of course it is still messy getting it in so I use vinyl gloves. Of course the Syringe is a one shot tool.
Date:November 11, 2002
From: Larry C. White lwhite@fbiacademy.eduHi Paul:
When I replaced a leaking port on my E32 last year I was surprised to discover that the cause was the improper original installation of the port through the hull. The collar of the port that slips through the hole in your boat was actually resting on the bottom of the hole, rather than having a small gap all around the collar filled with a waterproofing sealant. As a result, water was able to sneak in between the collar and the boat's hull and leak into the interior. To do the repair right, we even had to saw out some of the boat's hull to make the hole large enough for a bead of sealant all the way around the collar of the port.The good news is that, having done that, the repaired port has not leaked since. The bad news is that I have 9 ports left to do!!
Good luck to Rick Ball and all other E32 owners who have leaking ports (which is probably all of us!)
Date: November 16, 2002
From: Bruce McCampbell bruce_mccampbell@yahoo.com
I am currently doing a total referb on my Endeavour 43 and have found that the only product that will work on leaking ports in "Life Seal" not "Life Caulk". This product is made by the same company and is available from West marine. Do not use 5200...read all the warning in this forum. The "life Seal" will adher much better than "Life Caulk" and stay sofe for years to come. I used this product sealing my ports on a C&C 36 after trying everything known to man. It is al the product to use if you are replacing the lexan in the hatches. It comes in white and black. Best of luck to all and contact me if you have any question on the 43 Endeavour.
Date: December 8, 2003
From: Robert Lightbourn RLightb240@aol.com
I read somewhere if you want to find a leak try pressurizing the cabin with a leafblower. You will have to seal up a lot of holes, (Vents exhaust ports, refrig drain, and most thru hulls ) After sealing up the holes simply walk around the boat with a bottle of soapy water (Joy Dish washing liquid or equal, works fine) Coat the suspected areas with the solution and you should see a steady stream of bubbles. I wish I could give the credit to the person who I heard this from but his name escapes me. Thanks anyway who ever you are. I will be trying this in the spring.