Ice box to refridgeration conversion
Date: November 11, 1998
From: Paul Uhl endvr32aol.com
We have a 1981 Endeavour 32 with the original ice box along the aft, starboard side of the boat. Among other improvements scheduled, I've been considering adding refridgeration to our boat. How nice it would be to pull a cold (insert favorite libation) out of the fridge, etc. I'd be interested to know if any E32 or 33 owners have done the conversion, what kind of system you chose, what you loke/dislike, if you found and/or added any insulation, etc. What sparked my recent interest was a thermoelectric system that uses sea water to maintain a temp 45-50 degress below sea water temp. in a 10-12 cu.ft. space with very low current draw.
Date: November 12, 1998
From: Steve Glick BOATSRI@cyberzone.net
Hi Paul,
I have a cold machine-the small one-which really works. Ice cubes are no problem. I found the draw somewhat draining, but my batteries are 5 years old which may be the cause. I am replacing them this winter, and adding a separate battery just for the fridge so as not to worry. I also installed a combiner to isolate a staring battery which is constantly being charged. It will be happy to send you the paperwork on all of this if you like. I am also installing a more powerful alternator-have 35-going to 100 amps.
Date: November 12, 1998
From: John Kocher JOHNKOCHER@aol.com
We did a conversion on our E32 about 7 years ago, installing a Seafrost system driven by a belt mounted on the stub shaft of the engine. This involved installing a sheave supplied by Seafrost. We also glassed on additional polyurethane insulation on th box lid and the upper internal surfaces of the box. Used polyurethane foam to fill in some voids. Installation took some time but went well with Seafrost's excellent instructions plus a couple of very helpful phone calls and it's worked very well ever since. Final charging and pump down was done by refrig guy in NJ authorized by Seafrost.This was a CFC12 installation. Current models are 134A. Feel free to call at (908)-233-7211 if you need to discuss further. John Kocher- 'Legal Tender'
Date: November 13, 1998
From: Steve Glick BOATSRI@cyberzone.net
Hi Paul,
I have a cold machine-the small one-which really works. Ice cubes are no problem. I found the draw somewhat draining, but my batteries are 5 years old which may be the cause. I am replacing them this winter, and adding a separate battery just for the fridge so as not to worry. I also installed a combiner to isolate a staring battery which is constantly being charged. It will be happy to send you the paperwork on all of this if you like. I am also installing a more powerful alternator-have 35-going to 100 amps.
Date: November 13, 1998
From: Paul Uhl endvr32aol.com
What is your current set on batteries? I've also been toying with an upgrade there but want to move them battery bank. What do you have and where? Waht are you thinking about for an upgrade besides the 100 amp alternator?
Date: November 13, 1998
From: Ed Dowd eDowd@Adv-Sys.com
Paul-
On my 33, one of the prior owners had installed an Adler Barbor (sp?) unit. There is no evidence of additional insulation. They built a wood shelf above the water heater in the starboard cockpit locker and placed the compressor there. I love having it - for example, we just went on a 3 day cruise, and on the third day finally baked the frozen quishe - plus cold water, beer, and ice cubes for that end of the day drink.
The other plus, since the Endeavours drain the ice box into the bilge, w/refridge it is only the minor amount from the melt of the frozen condensation. Down side of course is the amp draw, especially since the location of my compressor is in the already hot engine compartment. So, my method is to keep it set high on shore power prior to departure, and then only run it about 1 hour out of 5 or 6, or when the engine is on. Plus I run the blower when the engine is on, and also occasionally for a few minutes to cool the locker space down. Not really that much extra to remember, especially for the benefit.
Date: November 13, 1998
From: Paul Uhl endvr32aol.com
Ed-
What kind of draw are we realistically talking about? What size alternator are you using?
Date: November 13, 1998
From: Steve Glick BOATSRI@cyberzone.net
I currently (no pun intended) have two banks-one for engine starting and one for house. The refer puts a little too much drain on the house bank (by the way, both are deep cycle 105's) over a weekend, consequently the addition of an isolated one for the refer.
I have no other electrical upgrades in mind at this time, since all else seems to be working well. As far as "other stuff", it's an expensive Christmas this year: new sink and plumbing in the galley for Carol, re-rigged the mainsheet (originally done by an apparent moron), sheet stoppers and an additional winch on the mast, new anchor and roller, and a professional compound and wax and a new mainsail for Stevie.. That's all folks! I'm broke!
Date: November 13, 1998
From: Ed Dowd eDowd@Adv-Sys.com
Paul -
The book on the unit rates it at average 5 amp/hr, But that would be I'm sure if installed as they recommend with good ventilation passing over the coils, which mine is not. I have 3 group 27's on house ( total of 315 amp hrs ) and it drew them down to below 12 volts in under 24 hrs - I wasn't watching, but my guess is that it really only took 10-15 hrs to get there. So, that is why I'm conservative in how it is used - still though, it does it's job very well - I mistakenly left it set to a cold setting with beers in the freezer box and it froze them solid - which is not real easy to do to beer - and a sad occurance when discovered on a hot afternoon ;-)
Hopefully this helps Ed
ps. If you go with the sea-water thing, be sure to share a status with us all. Thx
Date: November 14, 1998
From: Ed Dowd eDowd@Adv-Sys.com
Paul-
Just noticed that I missed your alternator question - Wind Walker has the stock alternator at present, but on my list is to up it to a high output one - hopefully in the range of 100.
Date: November 20, 1998
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
Ed,
This months SAIL magazine (12/98) had a mail bag question about sizing. Apparently the battery banks should be about, or slightly above, 4x the alternator output so as not to prematurly age the batteries (ie: fry them)
Date: November 27, 1998
From: Bradd Wilson sailhome@computan.on.ca
We just converted our ice box (E32) to refridge using an E-Z Cold cold plate with 12 volt air & water cooling. It draws 5 amps for about 2 hours for the initial freeze, then only about 20 minutes every 2 hours. The compressor is located under the hot water tank on the starboard side laserette. On our trip from Buffalo, NY to Ft Lauderdale, Fla we had no problems. The cold plate was mounted on the aft "ceiling" of the box allowing cold to fall down on the food. In stead of draining condensation into the bilge, we connected the drain line to a t-connection and to the fresh water pump to the sink. If anyone's interested, I'd be happy to forward drawing and address for the manufacturer. It only cost $900.00 and took 2 hours to install.
Date: December 1, 1998
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
Brad, did you add any insulation to the ice box, and if so, how?
Date: December 3, 1998
From: Bradd Wilson sailhome@computan.on.ca
Hi Paul,
I didn't add any additional insulation (E32) until we could evaluate the operation. At this point there doesn't seem to be a need. Operation is great even while motoring down the Intracoastal for hours, the fridge stayed cold and there wasn't any outside condensation. If I were to add insullation, it would be to the engine side of the box with the foil/foam sheets that EZ Cold uses for packing the unit for shipment. I'll let you know how the unit performs this spring in the keys when we're sailing (not motoring) in warm water.
Date: December 3, 1998
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
It also seems that the way the 'ice box' is built-in along the hull (and difficult to access the sides) that it would be hard to insulate from the outside. It seems to me that if insulation is needed, the galley countertop would have to be removed to reach those areas. Has anyone worked with spray insulations like "Great Stuff". I've used it on some other projects and it seems to work quite well. It's nice as it's a spray foam that expands and fills areas very well. It seems to have fairly good insulation properties.
Date: December 4, 1998
From: Randy Pickelmann RWP48@aol.com
Our E32, DUET, has an Adler-Barbour Cold Machine w/ a horizontal tray. The unit works great, even in the hot Florida summer. The compressor is mounted all the way aft on the staarboard side. A side benefit to this location is that if we run the engine in the late afternoon to charge the batteries, we can open the lazzerette hatch to cool the compartment faster.
The box could be insulated better. I feel that the biggest culprit is the top and the lid. We sometimes have condensation and mildew growing on the formica on the counter top if we are away from the boat for a week. I'll probably work on that problem this winter. The previous owner's solution to improving the insulation was to glue closed-cell foam to the underside of the counter. It actually works fairly well!
As far as power is concerned, we have a fairly substancial electrical supply. We have four 6 volt batteries, giving us two banks of 12 volts, approx. 400 amps. They are charged by a 40 amp, three stage charger (West Marine) when on shore power and by a 120 amp alternator while under way.
Date: December 5, 1998
From: Bradd Wilson sailhome@computan.on.ca
Paul,
The problem with GreatStuff is that its an"open cell" foam. It may be great for getting into spaces otherwise inaccessible but if it ever absorbs water, which it is prone to doing; it is really hard to access for removal. Closed cell foam is available from boat building supply dealers and while much more expensive will not absorb water and not require removal in the future.
Date: December 7, 1998
From: Randy Pickelmann RWP48@aol.com
I'll have to check to see the brand of 6v batteries we have. They are deep-cycle golf cart batteries. Two are in the engine compartment, port side. Two are in the foot of the quarter berth. I plan to move the ones in the q-berth this winter. I'll probably build a shelf in the sail locker, down low, near the engine. As presently configured the boat heels to port a few degrees because of all the "stuff" we stow in the q-berth.
I neglected to mention that we also have a seperate 12V battery dedicated to engine starting. It lives in front of the engine on a shelf above the fuel tank. It is switched seperately and isolated from the house batteries.
Date: March 28, 2000
From: Kitta Viljoen Livejon07@aol.com
DEAR GROUP,
I AM PLANNING ON INSTALLING AN ALDER BARBOUR REFRIGERATOR IN ONE OF MY ICE BOXES. UNFORTUNATELY, NONE OF MY ICE BOXES HAVE ANY GOOD INSULATION. DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY ADVICE ON WHERE I COULD GET IT? IS ALDERBARBOUR OK? ANY OTHER PRODUTS THAT YOU GUYS CAN SUGGEST?
Date: March 31, 2000
From: Mike Miller capnmike_s@yahoo.com
Suggest you take a good look at the FrigoBoat unit...it is marketed by Simpson Lawrence, and uses the same components as the Adler Barbour (Grundfos Compressor), but is about $100 cheaper! This West Marine stuff is NOT always the best deal! Feel free to contact me if you cant find one. Happy Trails and Full Sails
Date: April 1, 2000
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
Another source is BoatUS. Not only is their stuff a bit less expensive but you get another $10 or 20 back on every $250 you spend. We replaced our alcohol stove with a propane system through them for about $1,250 vs West Marine's $1,600. I should mention however that West did offer to adjust their price and make a competitive offer, but you have to ask. It was easier to go with BoatUS: they had all the stuff, I didn't have to back and forth to the store for small pieces, and I didn't have to renegotiate every time.
Date: April 4, 2000
From: Carl Hibbard Chgypsy@aol.com
Adler Barbour was used on 41% of the SSCA boats in the 1996 survery of refrigeration, average age 7.5 yrs and was ranked third out of 14 brands as far as owners rating and or fewest repairs.
Many people are lining the inside of their ice boxes with sheet foam insulation and then plastic welding polypropalene/ or ethelene liners over this. Your only other out if you need more insulation is to try and squeeze it in and then tape it down. If you try the spray please be careful due to (a) the expansion rate which can literally blow things apart and (b) the fumes which are deadly toxic, and most of the time quite acidic as a rule. Friend bled from nose for a week, still doesn't know what happened to his lungs.
Most of the boats have a very hard time with lack of insulation on the outside of the boxes on the hull side. These are the ones you see at Carib (or where ever) anchorages with blankets of one thing or another hung over the sides (only at one point) constantly. Good luck
Date: April 8, 2000
From: Jerry Bernath bernathj@pocketmail.com
I researched most makers of refrigeration systems last summer, Alder Barbour being one. I ended up repairing my Crosby engine driven for my E42 rather than buying a new unit. If I were to add dc refrigeration in addition to engine driven,I would have chosen Alderbarbour. I felt that they provided the best price performance unit for my application AND I did not want to add another holding plate so their approach was better than others, for me. You can obtain a very good book/guide from them that should help with your decision.
Insulation, as you know, is also key. My E42 has a great box with good insulation but I also found a way to make it better. Lowes and Home Depot have a FULLY waterproof siding foam type product in 4 by 8 sheets. It is about 3/4ths inch thick. It cost less than $10. I added 10 inches to the bottom of my box and it made a incredible difference.
I do not knw the E32 but if you are just a weekend or short trip sailor, not a full time cruiser/liveaboard, I would believe that the Alderbarbour and the foam insulation added to the inside of the box would work for you.
Jerry Bernah s/v BiBi
Date: April 17, 2000
From: Kitta Viljoen & Stephanie Tayag Livejon07@aol.com
Has anyone installed an Alder Barbour unit in their Endvr 32? If so I need help, I need step by step instructions on how to install one for a 4.5 cubic unit ...
Date: April 18, 2000
From: Rob Johnson robjude@shianet.org
I originally installed the cooling box horizontally in the top, aft part of the ice box. After 2 years I moved the cooling box vertically in the forward portion of the ice box. I installed the compressor unit on the shelf in the aft part of the starboard sail locker. Good Luck with your project.
Date: May 1, 2000
From: Paul Uhl endvr32@endeavourowners.com
Hi everyone,
I was just talking to Tom Gilbert about drains and through hulls on our boats, and ended up with several . . . questions. Maybe some of you have dealt with these and developed some interesting solutions.
Ice Box. Ours drains directly into the bilge. This causes our bilge to turn into a pungent, mold science project. Has anyone corrected this? It seem that a direct overboard discharge would be the best solution, but all the overboard thru hulls are located above than the ice box drainage nipple. The other problem would of course be a revese flowe of water into the icebox unless we added a shutoff.
Obviously we'd like to NOT add another thru hull, but find a way to use the existing ones.
Date: April 29, 2000
From: Bradd Wilson marina@portcolborne.com
When we added refrigeration to the ice box 2 years ago, we wanted to be sure that all that cold didn't just go into the bilge so we put a garden hose type "T" in the line coming to the foot operated pump in the galley sink. Whenever we want to drain any condensation from the ice box, we turn the 2 levers on the "T" to draw fridge water through the pump and into the sink. When that's drained out, we turn it back to fresh water although it does take a couple of quarts to rinse out the "skunky" fridge water.
Date: April 30, 2000
From: Don Shepard stoneware@journey.com
You can take a general purpose centrifugal pump or vane pump and hitch to the propane locker in the cockpit with a tee valve with a flapper so water goes out not into the locker. Put a switch in the control panel to turn off and on. Or wire a float in line with the float in the bottom of the ice box. In the 2000 West marine cat. on page 424 are some pumps that will do the job. Or dump Dawn dish liquid soap into the bilge and ( I prefer lemon smelling Dawn ) and it keep the bilge clean and smelling fresh also helps clean up small grease.
Date: April 30, 2000
From: Luther Carrier Lelair@aol.com
Skipper,
Your ice box will drain only what ever melts or leaks in your ice box into the bilge. That nasty smell is more than likely coming from the dead marine life that may come in via your stuffing box. Good Luck.
Date: May 1, 2000
From: Jim McMordie jim_mcmordie@gilbarco.com
Hi Paul,
Our ice box drain connects thru a two position valve (for outdoor hoses, you can get them at a hardware store) to the foot pump below the galley sink. To empty the ice box, you turn the valve (closing the water tank connection and opening the ice box connection) and using the foot pump, empty the ice box into galley sink. Once you're thru, you change the valve back.
Date: April 30, 2000
From: Bob McManis BMCMANIS@email.msn.com
Hi! I have an E-33 (84). My ice-box also drains into the bilge but I have an installed bilge pump and try to pump it regularly so haven't had any smelly bilge problems. Sorry I can't help you on the deck wash set-up. Let me know if I can help further. Hope to see you on the Bay.
Date: May 14, 2000
From: Fred Altmann fred.altmann@attglobal.net
I have very good experience with another make. I have to look in our yacht what the make is, I remember the company hails from Maine or New Hampshire. Our unit refridgerates nicely in our hot climate in Israel. I would make today 2 improvements if I would buy a new one: I would have shorepower to the unit, allowing full cooling while in the harbour. And I would be test, that I would be able to make icecubes. An old dream of mine. We run the engine twice a day for half an hour to keep it cool.
Alder Barbour is the mother of all accumulator fridges. They should have a good unit.
Date: May 26, 2000
From: Paul Kimarow pikomarow@webtv.net
I have a 1977 E 32. My problem is the cooler. It is great and large enough to keep a ton of food in it. I notice that there is a ledge on both sides which leeds me to beleive that the unit did come with a shelf or rack.Does anyone know how I can get one or does someone have a drawing of one that you have built yourself. Many thanks, stay well.
Date: May 30, 2000
From: Pete Doddato lapdog@olsusa.com
Paul,
My cooler has a plexiglass shelf that sides on the ledge. You could make one yourself real easy. If I were to make a new one, I would measure it to fit the back of the cooler leaving an opening to the front so you can access what is on the bottom without moving things all over the place.
Date: May 30, 2000
From: Bob and Sandy Warren rwarren@inna.net
I don't know whether it was original equipment or not, but when I got my E32, a 1979 model, it came with a Plexiglass/Lucite (I'm not sure what it is made of except it is about 3/8 in. thick, smoke color but translucent, and has 1-1/2 inch holes drilled in it. The fore and aft edges are parallel and at a right angle to the inboard edge. The outboard edge is curved and fits on the ledge that is outboard.
We put small items on it and ice underneath. The shelf is only about 2 feet wide so you can access the rear bottom part of the cooler w/o moving it. You do have to tilt it to move it back to access items under it. This is inconvenient as you have to take most of the stuff off the shelf first before moving it.
Items on the shelf don't get very cold either, at least in comparison with items set at the bottom of the icebox.
Date: May 31, 2000
From: Tom Gilbert TGil95746@aol.com
Paul,
The ledge is just as you surmised. I have a home made rack for such things as eggs, cheeses, butters, margarines and other light/fragile items. It's made from plywood, and fits neatly all the way aft. It measures about 12 to 14" long, and has the center cut out. It has fine netting stapled into the opening and sags enough to be useful, without hanging into the Corona supply. Happy sailing.
Date: May 31, 2000
From: Robert Flath oldthumper@primary.net
Paul...
My 1976 E32 came with the (original?) rack. If you still need info I can take and send e-pix and measure it. It is actually in two sections and a larrice type shelf. Cheers
Date: May 31, 2000
From: Paul Kimarow pikomarow@webtv.net
Paul: many thanks for your help and others that have been so helpful.Because the cooler has been converted to a refrigerator, the dementions are a bit different. I made a pattern out of cardboard and I think it will work. I intend to buy some ss 1/8 in. rod and weld them in the shape of a basket with arms to rest on the ledge. It sounds good! I'll let you know. stay well.
Date: November 19, 2002
From: David Meuche starstream@prodigy.net
We have a 1981 E-40. We have been considering installing a front door on the refrigeration/freezer compartment that would give access to the second and third levels of the compartment.
Has anyone ever done a mod like this one and if so would share your experience and thoughts on doing this.
Date: November 19, 2002
From: Bill Schreiber whatever4@juno.com
David,
I own an Endeavour 40, Hull #129, and lived aboard and cruised extensively from 1985 till 1998. I am now refitting the vessel. Personally, although the refrig box is a pain to get stuff out of the bottom, I would not put in a side door. It becomes one more place to loose the cold through. Also, it would limit the sliding range of the middle shelf. Each time you open it, the cold will cascade out. I have a friend who owns a CSY44, they have front opening doors, and his refrigeration really works hard to keep up with all the lost cold air each time it is entered. Also consider the fact that the galley is pretty tight in the Endeavour anyway; the size and direction of opening of the door should be well thought out before you cut on the bulkhead. Ours is, by the way, refrig only, no freezer, and we have two 12" x 16" plates, one on the narrow inboard end and one on the outboard end.
The system is powered by a Crosby 12volt compressor, located in the forward part of the engine room. Compressor runs about 45 minutes every 6-8 hours, dependent on outside ambient temp and amount of access and new warm stuff being put in the box. Hope this helps.
Date: November 20, 2002
From: Frank Boensch FDBASSOCIATES@compuserve.com
David,
We too have a1981 E40. And yesmy wife and I have struggled with the refrig access. Fortunately my wife is 5'6". Our solution was to go the WalMart and buy baskets which will fit into the top level of the refrig and do away with the top shelf. The baskets were perforated so as to get cold air circulating around them. This makes the access easy as you can remove a top basket and get access to he second shelf. Speaking of the refrig, I also added a layer of insulation in the engine room to help reduce the heat load from the engine.
If you have any more questions, let me know.
